I dont know what are you trying to proove nekro,really.Only two things you managed to do is to show how much you dont know and how good you can insult and argue.I never wrote Cit is perfect,it seems you have some issues with him?Or you have some problems and want to be the best on forum?Maybe you see Cit as some perfect being which you must kill in discussion?I dont have anything against you,but i do have something against crazy topics which dont have any coverage except your imagination,to make things worse,some people find energy to argue about it,Cit I must give you a medal for this...

or just ban him for disturbing the peace :)

nekro just doesnt want to be the person who loses..... thats what it seems

Again, I don't believe I've ever said anything specifically about what should happen or what I think would happen as a result of the Goku/Kai life swap. And even if I did it's completely irrelevant as pointing it out does not strengthen or weaken your argument at all. You're just sidestepping my argument.



Only I didn't pick either one. You were going off saying that Goku getting the 1000 years is a fact earlier. I'm simply presenting you you with two valid choices and pointing out that you can't pick one over the other and call it a fact. Yes, I did say that one seems to make more sense, but I never said that it must be the right one.


Well you can't even say how Goku would get the 1000 years anymore. You are right though that it doesn't weaken your idea because it's already about as weak as it gets. Your idea is just a bunch of assumptions with no facts.

You also don't seem to have anything worthwhile to support yourself against


As again, the validity of an argument you think I'm making does not effect your argument at all. If I did say something then yes it would have just as much going for it as Goku getting 1000 years or Popo and Kami's secret sexual relationship.

Sorry to say that isn't the case.

I don't care if I'm right or wrong. If I'm wrong, that's fine. If I'm right, that's fine too. The people in this thread seem to have a notion that I'm trying to only prove that I'm right and Citrinate is wrong. That's not what I'm trying to do.

I just want to have a discussion about what might or might not have happened to Goku during this whole Old Kai life-giving thing. If Goku did in fact only get life and nothing else, that's fine. I'd happily accept it as what really happened.

But what me and Cit are trying to figure out is if that's all he really got, was life. Did he get the thousand years attached to the Old Kai's life as well?

In reality, I couldn't really care less about Goku living for a 1000 years. He isn't my favorite character, and I don't find him particularly interesting. But even though I don't care if he lives for a thousand years or not, I do care to know IF he can live for thousand years or not.

I just want to know if he really did only get life, or if he a thousand years along with it as well. Either outcome being the correct one would make me happy, as I would know the truth then.


You're right, you've never said what should happen after the life swap. But you've still made your interpretations of what you think did happen after the life swap quite clear. You think that the Old Kai only gave Goku the ability to live again, and nothing else. You're saying the Old Kai gave Goku his life, and not his lifespan along with it.

That is one way to interpret it.

Another way to interpret it is to say that the life and lifespan went from the Old Kai to Goku during the life swap.

Also, for the second time, I never said it strengthens my argument, I'm saying that it doesn't make your interpretation anymore right/canon than mine.

And I have not been sidestepping your arguments. Take a look at my posts, I respond to every single one of your comments in very thorough detail. If I was sidestepping your arguments, I'd pick and choose what I would and would not want to answer at my own discretion. I'd avoid answering you, which I haven't done at all yet. So stop throwing out unsubstantiated accusations.


I never said Goku getting a thousand years of life was a fact, I said...

"Fact : If Goku was running off the thousand years of life the Old Kai had left, then that in turn would mean he would have a thousand years worth of life."

Which is just pointing out the obvious. If Goku was running off of a thousand years worth of life, then he would have a thousand years worth of life. It's just like saying that if you put gas in to a car, a car would be running off of the gas you put in the car. Just stating the obvious.

So again, I never said that it was a fact that Goku got a thousand years worth of life, but I have been perpetuating the idea that it is a possibility, and a logical outcome.

I also understand that you are offering another interpretation on this matter, so that there are two valid choices to choose from when trying to figure out the outcome of all of this. That's fine, offering different views and interpretations on the subject. I'm okay with either one of them being right, as I don't really care which one is right and which one is wrong, I just care about knowing which one is right and which one is wrong.

But your only intention wasn't to just offer another way of looking at this situation, it was to propagate your interpretation as being the only right/canon one.


Uh, yeah you can.

There is no official explanation regarding this subject. You can't claim Goku only got life to be fact, and I can't claim that Goku getting a thousand years is fact. That doesn't stop us from assuming the most likely outcome with the evidence provided from the scenario though.

I was just pointing out the blatantly obvious fact that there is no clear, official, or definitive explanation that would answer this once and for all. If there were, we wouldn't even be discussing this.


Sorry to say that your idea is just as "weak" as mine then, by your logic.

You assume Goku gets nothing else after he is granted life, but you can't prove it with facts. Just because you can't prove it doesn't mean your interpretation isn't true, it just means it's not a definite fact.

At least my idea has some validity to it. The Old Kai proclaims he has a thousand years worth of life, which is where my argument stems from. He proclaims he has a thousand years worth of life, and gives his life to Goku.

Where does yours stem from? Just your assumption that he gets nothing else?


I never said that it did, but you keep getting the idea in your head that I think it does.

I have already said that your argument doesn't strengthen or weaken my own, I've just been saying that the argument that you're trying to make isn't anymore right/canon than mine.


No it wouldn't.

Again, you seem to miss the fact that those ideas (Porunga/Shenron playing poker, and Mr. Popo and Kami's humpfests), while unprovable like our arguments, lack any sort of basis for their assumptions. That's where they differ.

My argument has a basis for its insinuations of Goku getting a thousand years worth of life. Shenron/Porungo playing poker and Mr. Popo and Kami's humpfests do not. They are being made up out of thin air, and the idea that Shenron/Porungo play poker on some ethereal plane of existence and Mr. Popo and Kami having sex with each other stems from absolutely nothing at all. It's never insinuated that those things ever happen, and the basis for those assumptions are non-existent. But it is insinuated that Goku had gotten a thousand years worth of life from the Old Kai when the Old Kai gave him his life. There is a basis for assuming it as a possible/logical outcome.

First you say I didn't say anything and then you said I did say something. Make up your mind. For me to say that nothing happened I'd have to first say that that you idea can't happen, but I've already said:



Again, I'm not arguing for any sort of idea. I'm only arguing against your idea right now.


This isn't a fact though as I've already pointed out it's equally possible that Goku did get a life that had 1000 years left on it, but still did not actually get 1000 years worth of life (his gas tank is too small to hold it all).


The other ideas aren't based on nothing either, they're based on the fact that we don't know what these characters do behind our backs just as your idea is only based on the fact that we don't know what unspecified consequences could have happened as a result of Old Kai giving his life up for Goku.

Goku is in the other world training with Pikkon and all of them.

Maybe you need to reread what I said.

I said you never mentioned what you think SHOULD happen, you only made your interpretation clear of what you think DID happen. Your interpretation is that Goku gets nothing other than life, but you never said that's what you think should happen. It's just your interpretation of what you think did happen.

Just the same for me, I haven't told you what I think SHOULD happen, I've only been saying what I think did happen.


I never said you were trying to prove that my idea can't happen, or ever thought that you were. You've only been saying that it's a crazy and illogical idea that shouldn't be taken in to serious consideration. At the same time, you've been perpetuating that your idea of what you think did happen is the right/canon one, even though by your logic it's just as crazy and illogical as my idea.

Just in the same respect, I haven't been trying to disprove your idea either. That was never my intention, because Goku getting only life and not a thousand years is just as fine for me as him getting a thousand years. But I'm not trying to pretend like my take on the situation is the only right/canon one. Like I just mentioned, I'm only throwing the idea out there as another possible, logical conclusion for the outcome. Something that should be taken in to as much serious consideration as your idea.

My intent with my argument was to only get you to see that Goku getting a thousand years is just as likely as him getting nothing else other than life as well. I'm just trying to show you that it's just another logical take on the situation that should be taken in to as much serious consideration as your idea as well. They both have a basis and a foundation for their insinuations, and they both have as much of a chance as being true as each other.

But you are being unwillingly stubborn to let that happen. You see your idea of what you think did happen as the only idea that should be considered.


To argue against my idea is to be for another idea, and you've already made your idea of what you think did happen quite clear. You're arguing that Goku didn't get anything other than life. You've been perpetuating this idea as the only one that should be taken in to any serious consideration at all as well.


I didn't say that it was a fact that if Goku got a life that had a thousand years on it, he would have a thousand years as well. I said if he was running off of a life that had a thousand years of life on it, then that would mean he would have a thousand years as well.

What I meant from that quote is that if the thousand years transferred with the life that the Old Kai gave Goku, then Goku would be running off of the life with the thousand years as well. If Goku is running off of the thousand years that transferred over with the life, then he would have a thousand years worth of life as well.

What I'm trying to prove as another logical outcome of this situation (and not a fact) is that the thousand years that the Old Kai had left transferred over with the life he gave to Goku. If this outcome is the case, then my above quote would be a fact, as having the thousand years worth of life transferring from the Old Kai to Goku would mean that Goku would be running off of a thousand years worth of life as well.

Do you see what I'm saying? It's just stating the obvious.

Let me put it like this...

If Goku gets a life, he runs off of that single life. You're arguing that this is the case for what the Old Kai did for Goku.

If Goku gets a life with a thousand years attached to it, then he would be running off of a thousand years as well. This is my argument, and if the first part is true, then the second part would be a fact as well. But I am not saying the first part is a fact, I'm just saying it's another logical outcome. And that if the first part IS true, then the second would have to be a fact based on that outcome.


You're right, we don't know what unspecified consequence might or might not have happened as a result of the Old Kai giving Goku life, other than Goku being alive again (but that's not an unspecified consequence, since we know that happens). We don't know if nothing else happened, just like we don't know if the thousand years passed over as well.

Having nothing happen is also an unspecified consequence though, and is based on the fact that we don't know what really happens as well. You can't claim that one unspecified consequence is anymore true than another if neither of them can be proven to be anymore true than the other, which is what you're trying to do.

Like I've been saying, my argument suffers from the same flaws as your argument. My idea for what I think did happen is just as likely as your idea of what you think did happen. They are both just as logical, and both just as substantiated as each other. And by your logic, they are both just as crazy as each other.

However, we can have an interpretation of what we think did happen, even if it might or might not be right. I think that your interpretation is just as likely as mine, and I'm not deadset on either of ours until I see something that helps put more leverage on one idea over the other. I just see them as equally logical outcomes, and I don't see one being anymore right than the other just yet.

Again, this is not the case for the same exact reason. Just because he get's 1000 years doesn't mean he can use it all. It's still not a fact. Not that it really matters though as it would only decrease the # of assumptions you need to make, but will not eliminate all assumptions. Having less of them doesn't really make your idea any more credible.


For the last time, I'm not arguing for any sort of alternate idea concerning Goku/Old Kai. My stance right now is that if it's not in the canon then it's not in the canon. End of story.

Sure you can talk about what idea you think makes the most sense to you (and it will only be to you as any idea is equally valid as long as it doesn't contradict the canon), but you can't go back to the canon and plug it in so what's the point really. If you want to get a right answer then the only place you're possibly going to find it is in DBO.

Ok, lets assume that Old Kai's lifeforce or whatever was transfered to Goku...

Why are you thinking of it as a solid and equal number? If you in some way or form correct, it could be that 1 saiyan year of life = 25 kai years.

I'd rather think of it as taking batteries out of a remote and putting it into a toy car... one is going to drain them more than the other.

Though many people i'd to think other wise, but I don't think all life is equal. Especially among different beings.