If goku wasnt dead, why would trunks seek the help of the humans of age 1000 to go back and help in the past, instead of just using goku himself?

The whole point of the game is that the zfighters are gone, and the planet is filled with warriors that understand how to use their ki.

Not even that, why would they [The Time Breakers or whatever they are called] be going BACK in time in order to get Goku's DNA?

That'd leave a MAJOR plot hole that'd need to be filled. I don't think Toriyama is one for major plot holes.

The main villians are from Age 2000, thousand years later than the year were in :P

But um, yeah, theres a **** ton of plotholes in DBZ ;;

not in the manga, the filler and movies create the plot holes for example gt is just one giant plot hole in itself.

Yes, I know. But what does that have to do with the quote?

I meant that it's evidence to show that in order for Goku to have even gotten the thousand years worth of life from the Old Kai, the Old Kai would've needed to of given Goku his life.

Goku wouldn't have gotten the thousand years worth of like from the Old Kai unless the Old Kai would've given his life to Goku. I was saying that just because the Old Kai announces that he has a thousand years worth of life doesn't mean Goku will all of a sudden have a thousand years worth of life. The Old Kai would've needed to give Goku his life in order for Goku to have the thousand years of life that the Old Kai was offering.

Refer to my apples example.


What happened when the Old Kai gave Goku his life? He lost his life in return.

What would happen if Goku became a Kai as a result? The Old Kai would lose his Kai-ship in return.

It's not an assumption, it's following a trend the series setup for itself. I'm just following the same pattern of logic. If the Old Kai gave Goku his life and lost it, he would lose his Kai-status if he were to give that to Goku as well.

If the Old Kai would've made Goku a Kai, the Old Kai would've no longer been a Kai himself. But he was still obviously a Kai even in death, so the only thing that transferred to Goku was the Old Kai's life. You may claim there are no rules when it comes to swapping lives, but there are two. You have to give in order for the other person to receive, and what you give you lose. The series has proved both of these rules when it came to the Old Kai giving Goku his life. The Old Kai would've had to of given Goku his life in order for Goku to have gotten the Old Kai's life. Once the Old Kai gave Goku his life, he lost his life.

So unless the Old Kai would've given Goku his life, Goku wouldn't have got it. Unless the Old Kai would've given Goku his Kai-ship, he wouldn't have gotten it.

Goku was obviously not a Kai, and the Old Kai obviously still was. So it was not given to Goku.


You already said what you believe the outcome is. Getting nothing else but life.

You've been claiming that the only thing that ends up happening is Goku gets the Old Kai's life, and nothing else. You believe the outcome doesn't involve Goku getting the amount of years of life the Old Kai had left.


I've been understanding what you've been saying, but you haven't been understanding what I've been saying.

There is nothing crazy about my idea, even if it can't be proven/disproven. The fact that it can't be proven/disproven doesn't mean that it's crazy, it just means we don't know if it's true/false. It's a reasonable and logical unproven outcome for this certain event.

The difference between my idea and any other crazy idea that hasn't been proven/disproven officially is that my idea is logical, and has a basis for its reasoning.

I could say that both Porunga and Shenron play poker with each other on some ethereal plane of existence whenever they aren't being summoned.

Or that Mr. Popo and Kami had sex with each other on a constant basis when no one was around.

There's no backing or basis for making statements like these, but you couldn't prove/disprove crazy ideas like that either, because there's not enough evidence to prove or disprove it.

You and I both know that those ideas are preposterous. But is the idea of the amount of remaining years the Old Kai had left transferring over to Goku when he gave Goku his life so preposterous? Is it not something that could be considered a logical outcome as a result of the Old Kai giving Goku his life? That the years would transfer over too?


Like I already said, my idea isn't similar to just any other crazy idea that can't be proven/disproven, just because my idea can't be proven/disproven as well.

My idea has a basis for its causality. The Old Kai has a thousand years of life he gives to Goku, Goku now has a thousand years of life. You make it sound as if this is some sort of crazy unbelievable outcome that has no basis or foundation.

There is no basis or foundation for your argument regarding Goku turning in to a Kai. Why would Goku become a Kai as a result of getting the Old Kai's life? Is the Old Kai still a Kai without his life? Or does he cease to be a Kai when he is no longer living? What does one have to do with another? There is no connection or correlation between the the Old Kai's life and his actual Kai-ship.

Giving up his life wouldn't automatically give up his Kai-ship. You could probably argue then that the amount of years on his life wouldn't transfer over then either. But the Old Kai's Kai-ship isn't connected to his life (he'd still be a Kai, even if had no life left), but the years remaining that he had to live was.

Goku would get a thousand years of life because the Old Kai was giving Goku his life. The thousand years has a connection due to the fact that the Old Kai was giving Goku his life. His life consists of the years he's left to live with. You can't have a life without years left to live. If you do not have years left to live, then you don't have a life. Having no years left to live yet still being alive would be contradictory to the fact that you would have no years left. So wherever one goes, the other goes as well. Which is why when the Old Kai gives Goku his life, Goku gets the remaining years as well.

This isn't some imaginary rule that I'm making up. It's logic. You can't have a life if you don't have time left to live. You can't have time left to live if you aren't alive. They are connected. So it would be logical to assume that where one goes, the other would go as well (where your life would go, the amount of time you've left to live would follow). Note how I said it would be LOGICAL to assume where one goes the other would go, not definite.

The Old Kai can however still be a Kai without his life. One isn't bound by the other. Which means that just because one transfers to Goku, the other wouldn't automatically have to.


No, it isn't.


The whole point of sending someone back to stop the "Time Breakers" was to make everything normal again in the past for that specific timeline, and to prevent the "Time Breakers" from doing whatever it is they were doing.

How badly do you think time would be messed up if Goku went back in time and just SSJ3'd everything to death right in front of his past self?

It's the same reason why future Trunks never told Bulma or Vegeta who he was when he had gone back in time, until he was born in the main DB timeline. He didn't want to risk himself not being born in that timeline.

Maybe Trunks just felt that it was a bad idea to send someone back in time that would probably meet their past selves, and possibly screw that timeline up. So instead, just send someone who won't be recognized, and won't run in to their past self.

Or maybe Goku was just unavailable?

Just because Trunks didn't enlist his help doesn't mean Goku was dead.

/facepalm.

He didn't point out that he had 1000 years left because he was giving them to Goku though, he said that to prove to the others that he's the best candidate to give up his life. You're assuming that the 1000 years were bundled with the life.

As Dante said a while back: you're assuming some sort of Death Note version of life in which each life has some sort of timer attached to it. There is another version in which there is no timer and a life is represented with either a 0 (you're dead) or a 1 (you're alive). If someone gives you their life then you go to a 1 and they go to a 0. If you assume the Death Note version then you must also make numerous additional assumptions as this version of life just doesn't seem to fit well with what we know about the Dragonball Universe (where lives don't seem to have timers as some characters die and are revived multiple times throughout the series).

You used some sort of example with exchanging gas between two cars a while ago. Well what if one car has 1000 gallons of gas and tries to give it all at once to another car that has no gas, but only a 100 gallon tank. You must also assume away a paradox such as this in which the car with a 100 gallon tank will be able to travel as if it had 1000 gallons of gas without ever refueling (a Saiyan living 10 times longer than his body should normally be able to last). To do this you'd probably have to assume that Goku somehow inherits some Kai traits and becomes Saiyan/Kai or even full Kai.


Yes, I did say Goku get's a life many times, but I don't believe I've ever said that that's all he could possibly get. Even if I had said that (making that argument fallacious) it doesn't strengthen your argument at all.


Yes, they are, and I'm glad that you can see this because those ideas have just as much going for them as yours.


And this is where you're just dead wrong. How crazy an idea sounds does not factor at all into whether that idea is valid or not and all of the ideas you suggested should be taken just as seriously as Goku getting 1000 years from Old Kai. You can either take them all seriously or none of them seriously. There's no in between when you're dealing with canon.

i dont know whats the point of this discussion cit:)Just let it be,this whole topic is now filled with so many **** which has nothing to do with concept art,and thats not all,this thing that is being discussed cant be prooved and nekroturkey just flame about irrelevant things.This topic should be about concept art from DBO not about necros imagination.

he just a retard who keep repeating himself and blaberring on aout something thats simply non viable.

It's called a discussion, not a flame. The only one trying to start a flame here is you and Dante, with your off-topic posts that don't have to do with anything regarding this discussion, insults, and constant flamebait.

If you want to avoid a flame starting, then don't fuel the fire.

Also, your precious "Cit" isn't perfect. He is just as much responsible at derailing this topic as I am with his own imagination, and interpretations on this subject. But try not to cry too much about it, ok?


I'm a retard, said the person who can't spell words right, or form grammatically correct sentence structures.

Maybe you should screw off to another thread and go play pretend psychotherapist some more, and then have venommourne suck your junk because of how much he "likes your style dude".

I swear, you two are like cockroaches. Wherever there's one, there's another.


I know that the reason why the Old Kai said he had a thousand years of life wasn't to tell Goku that that would be the amount of life that he would be getting, it was to show that since he had the shortest time left to live, he would be the better candidate when giving life to Goku. Let the old die and the young live (I believe he even says this line to Shin as well). It wasn't to say that that would be the amount of years that Goku would get. I get it, but you're still missing my point on this.

You're saying that the Old Kai giving Goku his life doesn't act as evidence on my behalf when it comes to Goku getting a thousand years worth of life. What I'm saying is that unless the Old Kai would've given his life to Goku, then Goku would've never have gotten the thousand years of life, because he'd still be dead.

Without this, my argument would be totally void, but then so would yours. The reason why is because Goku would still be dead, and we wouldn't be having this discussion then.

I feel like I'm not explaining this concept properly, because you don't seem to be understanding it.

Also, I've never watched Death Note, so I can't really comment on the show specifically. But what I can comment on is that you are accusing me of picking one assumption over another assumption, and you're pretending like the one you pick over mine is the right/canon one, because it seems like the most logical one to you and not because you can prove it, or because it's actually the right one.

Like you pointed out, there are two assumptions you can make when trying to figure out how life goes from one person to another person...

1. It's a trade off. The person with no life receiving life goes from dead (0) to alive (1), and the person giving the life to the person without life goes from alive (1) to dead (0). It would be just a straight trade off of life, and nothing else.

2. Same as above (except for the last part), but the amount of time remaining on the life being transferred would transfer over with the life as well.

So there are only two outcomes that can happen during the transitional phase of the Old Kai's life from himself to Goku...

1. Trade off. The Old Kai gives his life to Goku and goes from alive (1) to dead (0), and Goku goes from dead (0) to alive (1) when receiving the Old Kai's life. A straight trade off, and nothing else attached.

2. Same as above (except for the last part), but the time left on the life the Old Kai gives transfers over as well.

Then you go to say that if you pick the second assumption, additional assumptions would need to be made in determining how Goku would continue to age if he does really life for another thousand years.

Just because additional assumptions need to be made on how Goku would continue to live if he does continue to live for another thousand years doesn't make option 2 any more right/wrong than option 1. It just means we don't really know how Goku living for a thousand years would be handled. Not knowing how Goku's aging would be handled doesn't add any sort of validity to your argument, or any more leverage to option 1 over option 2.

Also, your example of Goku turning in to a Kai is not relevant to his discussion in the least, as like I said, it's incomparable to my argument.

You claim that it is exactly like my argument for Goku getting a thousand years worth of life once the Old Kai gives Goku life. What happened when the Old Kai gave Goku his life though? He no longer had a life (he died). So for your example to be comparable to mine, the Old Kai would also have to lose his Kai-ship to Goku if Goku became a Kai as well. He obviously did not lose his Kai-ship, and was still a Kai in death. It did not transfer from the Old Kai to Goku, and the Old Kai did not lose it, thus it is incomparable to my argument.

For it to be comparable to my argument, I would have to be arguing that the Old Kai would still be alive, even if Goku was returned to life as well. Then you could argue that the Old Kai's Kai-ship could've transferred over to Goku as well, since if the Old Kai didn't lose his life when giving it to Goku, why would he lose his Kai-ship?

This is, of course, not what I am arguing though. So it's an invalid example.


Again, just because there isn't an official explanation for how Goku's aging would be handled if he really had gotten a thousand years worth of life doesn't mean there isn't one at all. Like you and I mentioned above, we'd have to assume our way through how Goku would age once he had the ability to live for a thousand years.

But just because we would have to assume our way through how Goku would age through his thousand year lifespan doesn't make Goku getting a thousand year lifespan from the Old Kai when the Old Kai gave him his life automatically untrue.

If there was an official explanation for how Goku would be able to age for a any amount of years in general that exceed the default lifespan of a Saiyan, then that would probably help my case when it comes to determining if Goku did in fact get a thousand years worth of life, since there would be an explanation in place to explain how Goku would be able to age with that many years of life.

But just because there is no official explanation doesn't mean my case gets hurt, or yours gets strengthened. It just doesn't do anything at all for either of us. It just leaves more questions to be answered.


Goku has gotten life many times, but he has never been revived through someone elses life. It was new territory, and because no precedent had been set regarding it, we can't say for sure if the amount of life that's in one person goes to the other, or if the person just gets life in general and nothing else.

And yes, you have been claiming that Goku has gotten nothing else but life, which is an interpretation and not fact. It's an interpretation that can't be proven any more true than mine, and is just as fallacious as you claim my interpretation to be. I never said it strengthens my argument, I'm saying that it doesn't make your interpretation anymore right/canon than mine.


If those ideas are as crazy as mine, then they are as crazy as yours as well. Your interpretation has just as much going for it as mine does. You claim nothing transferred over, but you can't prove it. Just like I can't prove that anything did transfer over.

So by your logic, both of our ideas would be crazy.


There you go again, pretending like your interpretation is the only right one. That your interpretation is the only canon one.

Your interpretation is that Goku gets nothing else other than life when the Old Kai gives him life, and mine is that he gets the thousand years of life the Old Kai has left when the Old Kai gives him his life. In the typical hypocritical fashion, you're just replacing my interpretation with yours, and claiming that it's right because you say so.

Can you prove you're right? No, you can't. That doesn't mean that you're wrong. It also doesn't mean that I'm wrong. It just means that we can't say for sure who is right, or which interpretation is canon.

By your logic, your idea is just as crazy as mine, because your idea is just your own personal interpretation. It's not actually what happens, because you can't say for sure if it's actually what happens. Therefore you don't know if it's canon, or if you're right or wrong, or if I'm right or wrong.

Lack of clarity on this matter is both our friend and enemy. It prevents either of our interpretations from being canon or non-canon.